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creating a FOREST ROOT DOMAIN [message #156118] Wed, 10 June 2009 14:43 Go to next message
JR  is currently offline JR
Messages: 54
Registered: September 2009
Member
I have a windows 2003 domain (20 DC’s). Our goal is to rename the Domain.
However, we have decided its too risky to run the domain rename tool. We have
decide to do a migration. We also acquisition multiple companies and migrate
them to our domain. The goal is to create a win2k3 FOREST ROOT DOMAIN,
(separates Enterprise and Schema admin groups from the production domain ).
This Domain would have no users at all other than Administrator and one
backup account. What I’m trying to figure out is what to name it? Does
Microsoft have some best practice scenarios for this?
Then we build the production domain under the forest root. Call it something
like Production.Lan? This domain is subordinate to the forest root. we would
create various OU’s in here for structure/management. Then migrate the old
domain to this one.
Does this sound like I’m on the right path? Can you provide any
documentation, case studies, suggestions for this scenario?
Many Thanks
JR
Re: creating a FOREST ROOT DOMAIN [message #156126 is a reply to message #156118] Wed, 10 June 2009 15:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
aceman  is currently offline aceman  United States
Messages: 5816
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
"JR" <JR@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:50C83448-56CE-4022-B7BA-0D23EDF1789F@microsoft.com...
>I have a windows 2003 domain (20 DC’s). Our goal is to rename the
>Domain.
> However, we have decided its too risky to run the domain rename tool. We
> have
> decide to do a migration. We also acquisition multiple companies and
> migrate
> them to our domain. The goal is to create a win2k3 FOREST ROOT DOMAIN,
> (separates Enterprise and Schema admin groups from the production
> domain ).
> This Domain would have no users at all other than Administrator and one
> backup account. What I’m trying to figure out is what to name it? Does
> Microsoft have some best practice scenarios for this?
> Then we build the production domain under the forest root. Call it
> something
> like Production.Lan? This domain is subordinate to the forest root. we
> would
> create various OU’s in here for structure/management. Then migrate the
> old
> domain to this one.
> Does this sound like I’m on the right path? Can you provide any
> documentation, case studies, suggestions for this scenario?
> Many Thanks
> JR
>


JR,

Did you know this is a loaded question? This has been discussed numerous
time since the early start days of AD. And some thoughts have changed over
the years. In a nutshell, it depends. Read my following blog on this that I
and another MVP (prior when I was an MVP in the past), put together. It's a
pretty complete synopsis that I even added Exchange 2007 considerations
because of the UCC/SAN cert that is required for it to work with Outlook
Anywhere and Mobile handhelds.

============================================================ ==========================================
What's in an Active Directory DNS Name?
Choosing a domain name.

AD Design considerations

Same name AD DNS domain name and external name (split-zone)
I must say this is a classic question that stems back to the beginning days
of AD. Naming your internal domain name can be based on a number of things,
whether technical or political, or previous administrative experience. This
has been highly discussed (not debated) in the past. Whatever decision you
make for an AD DNS FQDN domain name, just understand the ramifications.
Actually I'm not going to try to get into any sort of debate, for there is
really nothing to debate, nor help someone decide on what is 'right' or
'wrong' but rather just state the implications and how to get around them,
no matter what the decision was based on.

The following passage below is a compilation of a discussion between myself
and Todd J. Heron, MVP, from a few years ago.

===

Classic question:
"Which are the advantages of naming my domain with domain.com rather than
domain.local? I have a domain.com registered for my Company that i use for
my e-mail and Site Internet."

There are different answers to this classic question and while these answers
ultimately depend upon company preference, much of the direction will be
based upon administrator experience. The three basic scenarios outlined
below are the most commonly given answers to the question, sometimes
altogether and sometimes not. Some company networks use a combination of
these scenarios. When explaining it to a relative beginner asking the
question, many responses omit explanatory detail about all the scenarios,
for fear of causing more confusion.

All three approaches will have to take both security and the end-user
experience into perspective. This perspective is colored by company size,
budget, and experience of personnel running Active Directory and the network
infrastructure (mostly with respect to DNS and VPN). No one approach should
be considered the best solution under all circumstances. For any host name
that you wish to have access from both your internal network and from the
external Internet you need scenario 1, although it is the most DNS-intensive
over time. If you do not select this option and go with scenario 2 or 3
only, consideration will have to be given to the fact that company end-users
will need to be trained on using different names under different
circumstances (based on where they are (at work, on the road or at home).

===


Scenario 1.
Choosing the same name internal/external (spilt-zone, or split-brain,
whatever you want to call it) has the most administrative overhead. Why
chosen? Either because a misunderstanding of the pros/cons, political, or
for ease of use.

Pros:
1. Their email address is their logon name. Easier to remember.

2. Security. Each DNS zone is authoritative for the zone of that name so
therefore the external DNS zone and internal AD/DNS zone will NOT replicate
with each other thereby prevent internal company records to be visible to
the outside Internet.

3. Short namespace. Users don't have to type in (or see) a long domain
name when accessing company resources either internally or externally.
Names are "pretty".

Cons:
1. Administrative overhead. If trying to get to your externally hosted
website, it won't resolve because a DNS server will not forward or resolve
outside for what a zone that it hosts. You can overcome resolving the
www.domain.com dilemma by using a delegation. Rt-click your zone, new
delegation, type in 'www' and provide the public SOAs for the nameserver(s).
This way it will send the resolution request to the SOA and resolve that
way. As for http://domain.com, that is difficult and would instruct all
users to only use www.domain.com. This is because of the LdapIpAddress, the
record that shows up as (same as parent), which EACH domain controller
registers. So if you type http://domain.com, you will round robin between
the DCs. To overcome that, on EACH DC, install IIS, then under the default
website properties, redirect it to www.domain.com and let the delegation
handle it. Now if you were to be using Sharepoint services, or something
else that connects to the default website (no sub folders or virtual
directories), then it becomes a problem. I know numerous installations setup
with this and have operated fine for years.

2. Security. Each DNS zone is authoritative for the zone of that name so
therefore the external DNS zone and internal AD/DNS zone will NOT replicate
with each other thereby prevent internal company records to be visible to
the outside Internet.

3. Any changes made to the public DNS zone (such as the addition or removal
of an important IP host such as a web server, mail server, or VPN server)
must added manually to the internal AD/DNS zone if internal users will be
accessing these hosts from inside the network perimeter (a common
circumstance).

4. VPN resolution is problematic at best. Company users accessing the
network from the Internet will easily be able to reach IP hosts in the
public DNS zone but will not easily reach internal company resources inside
the network perimeter without special (and manual) workarounds such as
maintaining hosts files on their machines (which must be manually updated as
well everytime there is a change to an important IP host in the public
zone), entering internal host data on the public zone (such as for printers,
SRV records for DCs, member server hosts, etc), which exposes what internal
hosts exist, or they must use special VPN software (usually expensive), such
as Cisco, Netscreen, etc, which is more secure and reliable anyway.

For further reading on this scenario:
http://www.isaserver.org/tutorials/You_Need_to_Create_a_Spli t_DNS.html
http://homepages.tesco.net./~J.deBoynePollard/FGA/dns-split- horizon-common-server-names.html

===

Scenario 2.
Choosing a child name or delegated sub domain name of the public zone. This
is one recommendation. Name such as 'ad.domain.com', or
'corp.microsoft.com'. The AD DNS domain name namespace starts at
corp.domain.com and has nothing to do with the domain.com zone.

Pros:
1. Mimimal administrative overhead.

2. Forwarding will work.

3. The NetBIOS name will be 'AD' or 'CORP', depending on what you chose and
what the users will see in the three-line legacy security logon box.

4. Like Scenario 1, this method also isolates the internal company network
but note this at the same time is also a disadvantage (see below).

5. Better than Scenario 1, internal company (Active Directory) clients can
resolve external resources in the public DNS zone easily, once proper DNS
name resolution mechanism such as forwarding, secondary zones, or delegation
zones are set up.

6. Better than Scenario 1, DNS records for the public DNS zone do not need
to be manually duplicated into the internal AD/DNS zone.

7. Better than Scenario 1, VPN clients accessing the internal company
network from the Internet can easily navigate into the internal subdomain.
It is very reliable as long as the VPN stays connected.


Cons:
1. Confusion on users if they decide on using their UPN.

2. While there is security in an isolated subdomain, there is potential for
exposure to outside attack. The potential for exposure of internal company
resources to the outside world, lies mainly in the fact that because when
the public zone DNS servers receives a query for
subdomain.externaldnsname.com, they will return the addresses of the
internal DNS servers which will then provide answers to that query.

3. Longer DNS namespace. This may not look appealing (or "pretty") to the
end-users.

4. Security. We are assuming that we can only access the internal servers
thru a VPN and assuming they are in a private subnet, they won;'t be
accessible. Also assuming to secure the VPN with an L2TP/IPSec solution and
not just a quick PPTP connection. If this is all so, we can assume it is
secure and not accessible from the outside world.

The scenario is the recommendation from the Windows Server 2003 Deployment
Guide. It states to the external registered name and take a sub zone from
that as the DNS name for the Forest Root Domain:
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/windowsserv /2003/all/deployguide/en-us/default.asp

===

Scenario 3. Choosing a different TLD: Choosing a different TLD, such as
domain.local, domain.corp, domain.net, etc. This option is usually best for
either beginners or the expert, because it's the easiest to implement
primarily because it prevents name space conflicts from the very beginning
with the public domain and requires no further action on your part with
respect to that.

But this option does makes VPN resolution difficult (like option 1) and
Exchange headers when examined closely will show the company internal AD
name which looks unprofessional. You can use any extension you want here
such as .ad, .int, .lan, etc...

Pros:
1. Easy to implement with minimal administrative overhead. Requires minimal
action on administrators.

2. Prevents name space conflicts with external domain name.

3. Forwarding works.


Cons:
1. Domain name may look unprofessional.

2. VPN resolution difficult (like option 1). That can be a sticky issue and
depending on the VPN client will dictate whether it will work or not. I know
one of the other MVPs (Dean Wells) created a little script to populate a
user's laptop or home PC's hosts file with the necessary resources and would
remove them once the VPN is dissolved.

3. Exchange HELO name must be altered (to accomodate anti-spam, SPF, and RBL
software), via MetaEdit, Metabase Explorer and thru the SMTP VS properties.


===

For a broad overview of this entire topic, see below.

DNS Namespace Planning
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;254680

Assigning the Forest Root Domain Name:
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/WindowsServ /2003/all/deployguide/en-us/Default.asp?url=/resources/docum entation/WindowsServ/2003/all/deployguide/en-us/dssbc_logi_k qxm.asp


===
Exchange 2007 UCC/SAN certificate:

More things to consider concerning the internal AD DNS domain name and if
using Exchange 2007 (added 5/18/09 by Ace Fekay):

If you choose a TLD, be sure to not choose one that is already in use by
another entity. Reason is it will cause due confusion, and will create
problems if you were to get an Exchange 2007 UCC/SAN certificate and adding
a name for the internal namespace on the certificate. Here are some existing
TLDs that you do not want to choose if the name does not belong to your
entity:

So it would be a bad choice for the complications that will arise, if you
name the internal domain is registered by others.

In one word, please make sure never to use a internal domain with a suffix
same as existing Top-level domain names. You can use such as ABC.earth,
ABC.mars and ABC.<whatever> but prevent from using those exiting top-level
domains suffix.

Technically speaking, you can also use the same name for the internal
domain and the external domain. However, this method is not recommended.
You may encounter following possible issues that you may have to perform a
domain rename in the further

1. If you name the internal domain the same as your Internet public domain
name, in some time domain internal client will get the domain external IP
(resolved from external domain name). In the scenarios that you also have
published Exchange Server to receive external mails, the issue will be much
more complicated. A sample issue:

Same Internal and External Domain Name
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-11190-0.html?forumID=40& ;threadID=181117

2. Worse, if you name the internal domain is registered by others.

Generic top-level domains:

biz .com .info .name .net .org .pro .aero .asia .cat .coop .edu
gov .int .jobs .mil .mobi .museum .tel .travel


Country-Code Top-Level Domains that you want to be careful choosing,
especially if someone else owns it on the internet. You'll never get the
cert approved if it is owned by someone else, despite the argument that
"it's my internal domain name..."

ac .ad .ae .af .ag .ai .al .am .an .ao .aq .ar .as .at .au
aw .ax .az .ba .bb .bd .be .bf .bg .bh .bi .bj .bm .bn .bo
br .bs .bt .bw .by .bz .ca .cc .cd .cf .cg .ch .ci .ck .cl
cm .cn .co .cr .cu .cv .cx .cy .cz .de .dj .dk .dm .do .dz
ec .ee .eg .er .es .et .eu .fi .fj .fk .fm .fo .fr .ga .gd
ge .gf .gg .gh .gi .gl .gm .gn .gp .gq .gr .gs .gt .gu .gw
gy .hk .hm .hn .hr .ht .hu .id .ie .il .im .in .io .iq .ir
is .it .je .jm .jo .jp .ke .kg .kh .ki .km .kn .kp .kr .kw
ky .kz .la .lb .lc .li .lk .lr .ls .lt .lu .lv .ly .ma .mc
me .md .mg .mh .mk .ml .mm .mn .mo .mp .mq .mr .ms .mt .mu
mv .mw .mx .my .mz .na .nc .ne .nf .ng .ni .nl .no .np .nr
nu .nz .om .pa .pe .pf .pg .ph .pk .pl .pn .pr .ps .pt .pw
py .qa .re .ro .rs .ru .rw .sa .sb .sc .sd .se .sg .sh .si
sk .sl .sm .sn .sr .st .sv .sy .sz .tc .td .tf .tg .th .tj
tk .tl .tm .tn .to .tr .tt .tv .tw .tz .ua .ug .uk .us .uy
uz .va .vc .ve .vg .vi .vn .vu .wf .ws .ye .za .zm .zw
============================================================ ==========================================



More on Exchange and naming...
============================================================ ==========================================
Exchange 2007 UC/SAN Certificate

If you need to test OWA, Outlook Anywhere, ActiveSync, etc, please visit the
following Microsofttest site. It will tell you where the problem lies:

Microsoft Exchange Server Remote Connectivity AnalyzerSelect the test you
want to run.
https://www.testexchangeconnectivity.com

Getting a certificate for Exchange 2007 is a little different than Exchange
2003 or a simple website. Exchange 2007 requires a UC/SAN (Unified
Communications - Subject Alternative Name). This type of cert supports
multiple names, which Exchange 2007 requires, especially to include support
for Outlook 2007 Autodiscover record.

The four main names I usually add when I make the request are:

mail.company.com (the name used to access OWA)
autodiscover.company.com
internalname.internaldomain.com (what Outlook Anywhere and DSProxy uses over
RPC/HTTPS uses to connect to Exchange)
internalname (the NetBIOS name of the Exchange 2007 server)

The internalname.internaldomain.com is what Outlook Anywhere and DSProxy
uses over RPC/HTTPS uses to connect to Exchange 2007.

The autodiscover.company.com is used by Outlook for autoconfiguration.

If you go to this site, they offer a web based tool to configure a
certificate request for your Exchange 2007 server.

DigiCert's Exchange 2007 CSR Tool
https://www.digicert.com/easy-csr/exchange2007.htm

Then you can use the request to submit it to the certificate authority. I've
been using this company (DigiCert) to purchase this type of certificate for
my customers. There are others out there, but I found this one is cheaper
than a couple of others, and works with Windows Mobile 5 and 6 without
problems. But that is up to you. Please check the other companies, such as
Verisign, Thwate, InstanSSL, etc, to compare.

Please keep in mind, your name, company name, etc, whatever name you put on
the cert (based on the domain name), a WHOIS on your domain name must have
this exact information, or they will not issue the certificate. This is a
strict requirement by the certificate authorities. You can call them if more
specific info about this.

More things to consider concerning the internal AD DNS domain name and if
using Exchange 2007 (added 5/18/09 by Ace Fekay):

If you choose an internal AD DNS name, be careful of the TLD you choose. You
do not want to choose one that is already in use by another entity. Reason
is it will cause due confusion, and will create problems if you were to get
an Exchange 2007 UCC/SAN certificate and adding a name for the internal
namespace on the certificate. Here are some existing TLDs that you do not
want to choose if the name does not belong to your entity:

So it would be a bad choice for the complications that will arise, if you
name the internal domain is registered by others.

In one word, please make sure never to use a internal domain with a suffix
same as existing Top-level domain names. You can use such as ABC.earth,
ABC.mars and ABC.<whatever> but prevent from using those exiting top-level
domains suffix that exist. So If I were to chose domain.net for my internal
name, but it is owned by someone else, the certificate authorities will not
approve the certificate request.

Technically speaking, you can also use the same name for the internal domain
and the external domain. However, this method is not recommended. You may
encounter following possible issues that you may have to perform a domain
rename in the future. Not something that one desires to do.

Some guidelines for internal AD DNS domain naming:

1. If you name the internal domain the same as your Internet public domain
name, in some time domain internal client will get the domain external IP
(resolved from external domain name). In the scenarios that you also have
published Exchange Server to receive external mails, the issue will be much
more complicated. A sample issue:

Same Internal and External Domain Name
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-11190-0.html?forumID=40& ;threadID=181117

2. Worse, if you name the internal domain is registered by others. Then it
will never get approved.
============================================================ ==========================================

--
Ace

This posting is provided "AS-IS" with no warranties or guarantees and
confers no rights.

Ace Fekay, MCSE 2003 & 2000, MCSA 2003 & 2000, MCSA Messaging, MCT
Microsoft Certified Trainer
aceman@mvps.RemoveThisPart.org

For urgent issues, you may want to contact Microsoft PSS directly. Please
check http://support.microsoft.com for regional support phone numbers.

"Efficiency is doing things right; effectiveness is doing the right
things." - Peter F. Drucker
http://twitter.com/acefekay
Re: creating a FOREST ROOT DOMAIN [message #156129 is a reply to message #156118] Wed, 10 June 2009 16:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pbbergs  is currently offline pbbergs  United States
Messages: 1024
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Why do you need to have a root domain? If you are having issues with domain
admins yank their rights. There should only be a few domain admins anyways.
I worked for a company of 55,000 and there were 4 domain admins in a single
domain and single forest. You can always delegate permissions to OU's as
needed. It isn't clear to me that this route is your best path and now with
RODC's available you can have remote sites with admins on these RODC's that
don't have domain admin rights.

If you had time and could explain your diliemna maybe there is another way
to do what you want by migrating everything to a single domain/forest.

--
Paul Bergson
MVP - Directory Services
MCTS, MCT, MCSE, MCSA, Security+, BS CSci
2008, 2003, 2000 (Early Achiever), NT4

http://www.pbbergs.com

Please no e-mails, any questions should be posted in the NewsGroup This
posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

"JR" <JR@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:50C83448-56CE-4022-B7BA-0D23EDF1789F@microsoft.com...
>I have a windows 2003 domain (20 DC's). Our goal is to rename the Domain.
> However, we have decided its too risky to run the domain rename tool. We
> have
> decide to do a migration. We also acquisition multiple companies and
> migrate
> them to our domain. The goal is to create a win2k3 FOREST ROOT DOMAIN,
> (separates Enterprise and Schema admin groups from the production
> domain ).
> This Domain would have no users at all other than Administrator and one
> backup account. What I'm trying to figure out is what to name it? Does
> Microsoft have some best practice scenarios for this?
> Then we build the production domain under the forest root. Call it
> something
> like Production.Lan? This domain is subordinate to the forest root. we
> would
> create various OU's in here for structure/management. Then migrate the old
> domain to this one.
> Does this sound like I'm on the right path? Can you provide any
> documentation, case studies, suggestions for this scenario?
> Many Thanks
> JR
>
Re: creating a FOREST ROOT DOMAIN [message #156177 is a reply to message #156118] Thu, 11 June 2009 10:28 Go to previous message
meiweb(nospam)  is currently offline meiweb(nospam)  Germany
Messages: 1307
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hello JR,

Why will you make yourself that much work and also an additional failure
point. I would choose wherever possible a single forest domain. Within the
OU structure you can control your admins with delegated controls and so have
as less admins as possible. Only for having control over admins i would not
built a structure whcih creates additional (not really needed) work.

If you need a real security boundary you have to create differnet forests,
domains are not security boundaries.

So Keep it simple for your own work.

Best regards

Meinolf Weber
Disclaimer: This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers
no rights.
** Please do NOT email, only reply to Newsgroups
** HELP us help YOU!!! http://www.blakjak.demon.co.uk/mul_crss.htm


> I have a windows 2003 domain (20 DC's). Our goal is to rename the
> Domain.
> However, we have decided its too risky to run the domain rename tool.
> We have
> decide to do a migration. We also acquisition multiple companies and
> migrate
> them to our domain. The goal is to create a win2k3 FOREST ROOT DOMAIN,
> (separates Enterprise and Schema admin groups from the production
> domain ).
> This Domain would have no users at all other than Administrator and
> one
> backup account. What I'm trying to figure out is what to name it? Does
> Microsoft have some best practice scenarios for this?
> Then we build the production domain under the forest root. Call it
> something
> like Production.Lan? This domain is subordinate to the forest root.
> we would
> create various OU's in here for structure/management. Then migrate the
> old
> domain to this one.
> Does this sound like I'm on the right path? Can you provide any
> documentation, case studies, suggestions for this scenario?
> Many Thanks
> JR
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